| [There are some Hindi speeches. They are translated into English and typed in English. Please see]
MS. RINI KHANNA, COMPERE : Welcome to all. Thank you for taking out time for us, to be with us today. I now welcome Mr. Aroon Purie, Editor-in-Chief of the India Today Group to deliver the Welcome Address.
SHRI AROON PURIE, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, INDIA TODAY GROUP : Good afternoon. Hon’ble Finance Minister, Chief Ministers and distinguished guests : It is my pleasure to welcome you all to the Fifth India Today Conclave of Chief Ministers. For three decades now India Today has been at the forefront of interpreting the news, going behind the news and putting a perspective to the news. We, at India Today, have always believed that a magazine is not just an inanimate platform. We believe it is a forum to discuss issues, views and concerns that worry, amaze and thrill the nation. In this fast-changing flat world of 24-hour news, attention-deficient demographics, it is a matter of pride for us that over four million readers reach out for the magazine to make sense of India.
Over the years we have been responsible for organizing many debates, not just about today’s news but also what could be the challenges of tomorrow. At the annual India Today Conclave we assemble the finest minds from across the world to discuss and debate the way the world is evolving and India’s place in it. The Board of India Today Economists, otherwise known as BITE, consisting of six of the finest economists enable us to comprehend micro and macro trends in business and economics that affect and could alter our wellness.
The idea is simply to bring on board the best, to open up issues for debate and distill the essential for our readers. The State of States report was one such idea that was born in our editorial meetings. India was not yet the flavour of the global investor. The concern was that while there was much debate about reforms at the Centre, the discourse was not obviously being heard in the States. That was in 2003. I am both delighted and overwhelmed at the response we have received year after year. Indeed today the India Today Chief Ministers’ Conclave is, perhaps, the first and only national level event that is dedicated to debating and propagating the issues concerting the development of States. It is also the only event where political leaders, cutting across Party lines, come together to debate what matters the most – the State of States.
Last year we had representatives from 13 States. This year, I believe, we have representatives of over 15 States. This would not have been possible without your support and cooperation. I wish to share the success with you all and take this opportunity to thank all of you for your support. I also wish to acknowledge the support we have received from policymakers, economists, bureaucrats who have flooded us with views and ideas. A share of the applause is also due to two experts – economists, Dr. Bibek Debroy and Laveesh Bhandari, who do the study for us and have been doing it for so many years.
The study is based on performance data, without a hint of subjectivity applied to it. Our methodology is transparent and auditable. The two experts are present in the audience and will be happy to explain any misconceptions on this count. Our study, as every year, lists out the best performers across eight parameters both big and small States. It also lists out the most improved States in each parameter. In each parameter, our experts examine the performance of the States across a bouquet of six variables. The scores across these parameters also help us to derive the best small State and big State as also the most improved State.
I must add here that most of these parameters take many years to change. Consequently, sometimes, the present rulers of States often take credit for the efforts of their predecessors. But the way electoral politics works out in India with strong anti-incumbency trends, sooner or later, everyone gets credit if the State is performing.
Every year we try and look at a theme that is relevant to the times. In the past years we have examined the impact of the 1991 reforms, argued how small States are better, gazed in the crystal ball on what States would look like in 2020 and studied the potential of States vis-à-vis their performance. Given the economy’s rocking performance over the past three years, we decided to see if growth was wide enough and if the poorest of the poor were benefiting from it. We did this by studying data both on the expenditure and income across sectors and social groups. There is both good and bad news. Our study shows that there has been a trickle-down effect and that poverty has come down. The bad news is that growth, far from being inclusive, has increased inequality. The reason clearly as asymmetry in education, skills and opportunity that arise from inadequate investment in social and physical infrastructure. Very simply, it all boils down to good governance. We do spend a lot of money to alleviate poverty. But as the Finance Minister once said in his Budget speech, outlays do not necessarily translate into outcomes. The deficit in Government is also what separates the winners from the losers.
We have two lively sessions planned for this afternoon – the first session is on the politics of inclusive growth where we would like to focus on why health, education and human development are not on the political agenda. In our second session on the economics of inclusive growth, we would like to see why it is so difficult to get physical infrastructure up in the country.
As always in India, we seem to know the cause; the ailment has been diagnosed much before. What we need is action on the ground. I hope the fifth India Today Chief Ministers’ Conclave would provide both thought and a route map for the action. To do this, we could not have asked for a better person than the Finance Minister Mr. P. Chidambaram who is the guiding force behind this fantastic growth of the economy. I must say he has achieved this growth in spite of a 200 pound gorilla sitting on his back which is the Left who do not really believe in growth. But I would like to say that beyond that, I believe, Mr. Chidambaram is among the most passionate in this country in the promotion of inclusive growth. May I now invite Mr. Chidambaram, our Finance Minister to inaugurate the fifth India Today Conclave?
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM, HON’BLE FINANCE MINISTER, GOVERNMENT OF INDIA : Mr. Aroon Purie, Editor-in-Chief of the India Today Group, Editors of India Today, Chief Ministers, Deputy Chief Minister of Bihar, representatives of other States, ladies and gentlemen : I am a passionate advocate of the well-being of all States because if all the States are doing well, India will do well. Unfortunately, as studies have revealed year after year and as you will hear presently, growth is not even among the States and within a State too growth is not even. One of the reasons why remarkable economic growth rate across the country is criticized in some quarters or to put it mildly not well appreciated in some quarters is because of the unevenness of the process and unevenness of the product. It is, therefore, important for us to understand why some States succeed more than others and why within each State some parts of the State do better than other parts of the State. It is quite possible that there could be legacy issues, historical reasons. But, I believe there is no problem that cannot be overcome by applying logic and reason.
My very respectful submission to Chief Ministers and to all others is the starting point is to believe that the laws of economics that have worked all over the world will also work in India. India is not an exception to the laws of physics; India is not an exception to the laws of chemistry and there is no reason why India should be an exception to the laws of economics.
We are proud of an open society. We are proud of an open polity. We must learn to understand the merits of an open economy. Over the last 16 years our economy has become more open, more competitive and, therefore, more productive and more healthy. Having said that, we must turn our attention to address the problems even in an open economy. There are States which are small and, therefore, their capacities are limited. There are States which are not mineral-rich or resources-rich and, therefore, their growth will be constrained. There are States which, for historical reasons, are extremely backward in terms of human development indicators especially education and health and that will constrain growth. But I believe each one of them, each one of these problems can be attacked by applying logic, reason and good economics.
Some myths must be dispelled. First, the myth is – the Chief Ministers will forgive me – that States do not have money. That is a myth. As of today, all States put together in India have 14 day treasury holding of Rs. 35,419 crore. Apart from that you also have 91 days’ tea bill worth Rs. 38,576 crore. States have money. In the last three years, every Chief Minister will testify to this, we have devolved upon States by way of tax revenue share, grants, plan and non-plan, other special grants and loans, a huge amount of money. Never before – I did not say never after – never before has so much money been devolved to the States. If we continue to grow at 9% the next three years will see more money to the States than the last three years. If we continue to grow at 10% the six years next will see more money devolved than the past six years. Therefore, you have a vested interest in growth as I have because the faster we grow, the stronger the growth rate, more money will come to the States. States have money. That is the first myth that must be dispelled.
The second myth that must be dispelled is there are not enough programmes in this country to reach the poor. That again is entirely wrong. Every Government in this country has launched programmes. Initially, as of course, the programme will have a slow start; but as the programme picks up, its pace gathers, benefits will flow. For example, the Golden Quadrilateral was launched by the previous Government. But it has gathered pace in the last three years. The North-South East-West Corridor was announced by the previous Government; but it is beginning to gather pace since last year. Likewise, we can go back ten years ago the programmes that were launched; twenty years ago the programmes that were launched.
As each programme gathers pace and each Government adds to the programme, there are enough programmes in this country to reach to everyone in this country. Let me quickly list to you some programmes launched in the last three years – the National Rural Employment Guarantee Programme, the expansion of the Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan, the launch and the expansion of the mid-day meal scheme, only yesterday we expanded that to upper primary classes in 3,469 educationally backward blocks and we said in 2008-2009 the mid-day meal scheme will be expanded to all blocks in the country for upper primary classes. There is the Aam Aadmi Bima Yojana which will be formerly launched in Himachal Pradesh on the 30th of this month, it will be launched all over the country which will cover one crore families. There is the health insurance scheme which has been approved by Cabinet which will again be launched in the next few weeks. There is the old age pension scheme. We have expanded it to all poor people now. We are contributing and we have asked the States to contribute in equal number. There is the National Rural Health Mission which is being rolled out and ASHAs are being appointed in every village.
In every one of these programmes, I want to tell our friends, the Centre and the State are partners. No one is a big partner and a small partner. This is not a partnership firm where you measure stake by what is your equity share. We are equal partners. Sometimes the Centre may contribute more, sometimes the Centre may contribute equally with the States. But for that reason we do not regard ourselves as a big brother. We are equal partners. Even when we contribute 75% I regard the State is an equal partner. But the implementation is in the hands of the State. If the NREGP is a success in one State and not so much a success in another, the fault can only be at the level of implementation. If we implement regardless of our political differences, regardless of which political party is in charge of the administration of the State, if we together, with a sense of partnership as well as a sense of ownership work it would be good. I think the sense of ownership is very important. If you own the programme and implement it together, I think, it is certainly possible to make an even more frontal attack on poverty, especially pockets of poverty, especially regions which are backward and take India forward.
I have no doubt in my mind – I will not be Finance Minister then – but I have no doubt in my mind that in my lifetime we can abolish abject poverty in India. It will take us 20 more years of splendid growth rates, growth rate of over 8%, near 9%. If we can sustain it for 20 years you will find that this country is a very different country than what it is today and what it was 15 years ago. Abject poverty, the kind of poverty that we have known for 5,000 years can be abolished. I think it is a good lesson that all of us are here to know what is the state of our States. The state of our States this year is better than the state of our States last year and the state of our States this year is better than the state of our States ten years ago. I urge the Chief Ministers and I urge all stakeholders to passionately commit themselves to this idea of India finding its place, India finding its feet, India growing. When state of the States improves, I will take satisfaction because the state of India has also improved.
I congratulate India Today for this event and I congratulate India Today for the study that it will present, authored by two of my friends on the state of the States. I wish you a very pleasant evening. Thank you.
MS. RINI KHANNA : Thank you Mr. Minister. We request Mr. Prabhu Chawla, Group Editor of India Today to moderate the first debate on the politics of inclusive growth.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA, GROUP EDITOR, INDIA TODAY : Welcome to all the Hon’ble Chief Ministers and other distinguished guests. I am supposed to moderate. Mr. Chidambaram has already declared that state of the States is better than what it was last year. I do not know that because once we start the debate, then only we would know whether the state of the States is better or not. But I only can tell you that your State is better than last year; your revenues are going up and up and your coffers are full of money and, therefore, you can tell all of them, they will get more money anyway. Before we get to that conclusion I would like to invite the few Chief Ministers to come on the stage. It is in two sessions. I will the politics of it first because there are certain States who are behind; there are certain States who are ahead of others. Why?
I would invite the seniormost Chief Minister in the country at the moment Sardar Prakash Singh Badal to come on the stage who is sitting next to Shri P. Chidambaram. Then I will invite Mr. Bhupinder Singh Hooda to come on the stage to join us – on the left side of Mr. Chidambaram. He needs ‘left’ support. Is it so? I invite Mr. Shri Thangam Thenarasu representing the State of Tamil Nadu who is to sit next to Mr. Badal. I invite Shri Shivraj Singh Chauhan, Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh, Mr. Digambar Kamat Chief Minister from Goa, Mr. Lal Thama from Mizoram, Mr. Tarun Gogoi, CM of Assam.
I have to moderate the debate. I will moderate from here itself. It has to be bi-lingual. So, I have to speak both in Hindi and English. As Mr. Purie has already defined earlier, the session is on politics of inclusive growth. This was the slogan of the UPA Government and inclusive growth means what. There is a contradiction in that because inclusive means you are talking about communities, you are talking about regions, you are talking about what kind of people in the States. So, there is a definition of inclusive growth as well. There is a politics of it. Is there politics or not? It is because India is growing at 9%. As Mr. Chidambaram has just now pointed out, some States are going faster than the others and our study reveals that – yes, richer are becoming richer and poorer are becoming poorer. Why is that?
Our study also reveals that those States who invest more in the human resources, more in agriculture, more in infrastructure are the ones who are doing very well. Within that State, the region which gets more educational facilities, better health facilities and better agricultural inputs also do well. So, all this talks about what kind of growth we have to go for. Unless you get your basics right you will not grow. That is what the study reflects. Since Mr. Prakash Singh Badal is from the State where agriculture is the primary source of income, it has been getting number one award for the last five years primarily because of its agricultural contribution to the State’s GDP, I will request him that why there are not enough investments in education. In your State, in education, in agriculture, in health there is not much of investment. Had it been so, your growth would have been much more. As Shri Chidambaram pointed out, the States are not poorer any more. They have got Rs. 50,000 crore sitting in their coffers. The money is still increasing. In a State like Punjab, which is rich, which is number one, in these three areas why there is no investment? Shri Badalji, you are the seniormost Chief Minister and you have got good experience. Please tell us on this. You may like to tell something on this.
SHRI PRAKASH SINGH BADAL, HON’BLE CHIEF MINISTER, PUNJAB : Respected Finance Minister, Shri Aroon Purieji, Shri Prabhu Chawlaji, Chief Ministers, esteemed guests : I am thankful that I have been given the first time to speak and I am also lucky that I am very near to the Finance Minister of India whom we need the most. The question put to me is that Punjab is known for its agriculture. It was known and it is known so. You have asked as to why much investment has not been made in education and health services etc.
As you know, Punjab is the State which has contributed the maximum for the country, for the Independence of the country, for the defence of the country and above all feeding the country. For feeding the country, the natural resources we have got – land and water – we have sacrificed that for the country. I request the Finance Minister that he should not mind – the country has not realized this what all we are doing. Our lands are depleted. Water forces are also going to be depleted. As other States ask for royalty for coal, for power or any other thing, in the same way we are not given any royalty for our these natural resources which we are sacrificing for the country. We have sacrificed our lives for the country; we have sacrificed our natural resources. But what have we got? Our Finance Minister has given a very rosy picture about the country. But I am a frank man. I must say that this rosy picture is in the magazines or in the newspapers; but actually, in the real sense, the position is worst. Seventy per cent of the people who live in villages and some per cent living in the cities are not getting benefits of the funds provided in the schemes of the country. If that has been, it is in the papers. Certain agencies have revealed that at present 30% of the population of the country is so poor that their daily earning is about Rs. 20. Just imagine – in a country which has such a big population where 30% of the population get only Rs. 20 a day, can we boast that it is a country which is doing well?
We have to plan from down; not from upper strata. I would request Shri Purie and Shri Prabhu Chawla to hold this meeting next time in a village, under a tree. We talk about these things in big air-conditioned halls and even in the meeting of the Planning Commission. I have requested the Planning Commission that kindly stay for one day and one night in any village and then you will realize what is to be done. The first thing I will say is that who works hard in the country, they should be given preference.
You take agriculture. The agriculturists are doing hard work. But are they getting profit for that occupation? Every agriculturist in the country who is doing only agriculture is under heavy debt. I know of Punjab. We are in a debt of Rs. 20,000 crore in which 10,000 families are involved. In every family there is a debt of about Rs. 5,000 to Rs. two lakh. What is the reason? Have they not worked hard? The only reason is that the policies of the Centre are against the farmers. You can check this and see how much price they are getting. Agriculture is in full control of the Central Government. What can we do in the States for the agriculture? Nothing. It is because prices are fixed by the Centre whether it is cotton or whether it is wheat or paddy. The farmers are asked to sell their produce at that price. Again take the case of inputs.
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Take the case of fertilizer or diesel. It is the case with everything. So, I will exactly say that it is due to the anti-farmer policy of the Central Government that the sufferer is the farmer. So, I would request this august House specially our Hon’ble Finance Minister to get an expert study by some economists who should go in the villages and see the condition in the villages and then find a solution for them. If we treat that our progress is only for 10 or 20 per cent, and the rest is not in our agenda, then we are certainly in the wrong.
There are certain things specially for Punjab. We are the worst sufferers in the country. Why because we are on the border. Our State lies on the border. Nobody has realized that such an important province of the country is suffering due to the political condition or due to the situation there. There are farmers who are cultivating their lands beyond the wire (fence). I have repeatedly requested the Centre that those persons are at that position because of the Independence of the country. Had there not been partition, they would have been the richest people in the country. But nobody is listening. They demand Rs. 2,000 per acre as a grant because they cannot cultivate their lands in that area.
There are other difficulties posing the industry. You will say that Punjab is not presently progressing as regards the industries are concerned. How can we progress? You have given so many concessions to the neighbouring States. We are not giving concession as the neighbouring State. But if the neighbouring States which are at a distance of a few miles from our borders are given such heavy concession, do you think that in these circumstances the industry will come to Punjab? Nobody is willing to come to Punjab. Our industry has already flown to other States.
I must tell you a truth. There is a great disparity between the cities and the rural areas.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Prakash bhai, what I suggest is that we come back to the other subject. You have raised a very fundamental issue of agriculture which is what I discussed. I think I will come back to you on city and urban divide.
SHRI PRAKASH SINGH BADAL : I said only about agriculture.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : You spoke on agriculture just now that it is the Centre’s responsibility and if we do not invest in agriculture you will not grow. That is the finding of the State. I will come back to you on that. I want an answer from Shri Hooda because his State was part of Punjab. You are talking about land being sacrificed. If I understood correctly, you gave your land to Haryana because nobody else has taken the land except Pakistan.
SHRI PRAKASH SINGH BADAL : We are not fighting in this way. We are friends and neighbours. This is the old game that the States are fighting in between.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : That is like an old game. All of us have done sacrifices. For example, you have raised a very fundamental issue that you are protecting the country, you are feeding the country, you are giving water to the country and, therefore, you should be given better treatment. It is like the Congress Party claiming that they have given the Independence for you and, therefore, they must remain in power forever. That is a different issue. Let me ask Mr. Hooda one question. Do you agree with him that the Central Government is anti-agriculture and agriculture is suffering because of anti-agriculture policy of the Central Government?
SHRI PRAKASH SINGH BADAL : Kindly trust from the heart.
SHRI BHUPINDER SINGH HOODA, HON’BLE CHIEF MINISTER, HARYANA : No. I agree with him.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : You agree with him that the Centre is anti-agriculture?
SHRI BHUPINDER SINGH HOODA : Not with what he has spoken. But it is right that the farmers are not getting their due. They should get it. As a son of a farmer I know this. But he has raised many questions which I do not agree. You are saying that you are giving natural resources; I do not know whether he is giving my due water, the water that is due to us. Water comes from Himachal Pradesh and water comes from Jammu and Kashmir. I do not know where is that natural resource in Punjab what the Hon’ble Chief Minister is saying. My basic objection is that the due share of my water should be given.
Secondly, he said about the Central Government. He is my elder brother. I respect him. He was also Agriculture Minister when their Government was there. What policy did he change about the Centre? To criticize is very easy. He was there.
As far as education and health are concerned, as regards Haryana I can say that Haryana is the first State which has introduced EDUCET and that is the biggest network, may not be in the world but at least in Asia, for education. Haryana is the first State to introduce semester system and after our Government came, Congress Government came in Haryana, Budget for education has been increased, more than double. In North India Haryana is the first State to come out with a rural-based women University. He was championing about rural areas. Agriculture is a rural business. We have come out with new Universities, scientific and technical education University at Murthal. We are coming out with new concept of education, that is we are building a new city named after late Rajiv Gandhi – Rajiv Gandhi Education City at Kondli and skill talent improvement. There were 23,000 seats available before our Government came in technical education including engineering colleges, polytechnics etc. Within two-and-a-half years the number of seats has been raised to 48,000 – more than double.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : We were talking about agriculture. What are you doing for agriculture? Haryana and Punjab put together have been feeding the country till now.
SHRI BHUPINDER SINGH HOODA : Even now we are feeding.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : But now it is being reduced.
SHRI BHUPINDER SINGH HOODA : No, it is not being reduced. In agriculture, the procurement of wheat during this season is more. If you take the percentage, Haryana topped in it. It performed better than Punjab. I think the Hon’ble Finance Minister would agree with me. That way Haryana is still getting it. There is a qualitative change. We want to empower the farmers. We have passed the Contract Farming Act. By this Act the farmers can get better things. But still I feel that the farmers are not getting their due which they should get.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : What do you demand specifically? Shri Badal is saying that the farmers are not getting good prices for their products and even the prices of the inputs which they are getting are fixed.
SHRI BHUPINDER SINGH HOODA : This Government has done better because they have increased the price by Rs. 200 per quintal. But still the farmers are not getting their due. They should get more. Simultaneously our country is a producer as well as a consumer. The consumers are also very poor. What I say is that there should be a capping between what the producer gets and what the consumer gets. The middlemen eat the money. Supposing the producer gets Rs. 100 for one item, when it reaches the consumer it is more than Rs. 200. There should be a capping of 20% or 25% for may be, transportation or commission etc. That can check the things. It is right that the fertilizers are costly. They are becoming costlier. Everything is costly. The cost of input is more as compared to increase in the prices. So, the farmers should get their due.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : I think I will just request the Hon’ble Finance Minister to intervene here. The CM, Punjab is saying that you are anti-farmer, the Centre is not giving enough money; it is all happening in air-conditioned halls here. I accept his challenge. Next time we try to hold something in the village and we will call him there also. Sir, do you share his views?
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM : I think you misunderstood Badal saheb when he criticized the Finance Minister. He was referring to my predecessors. Let us see the facts. The NDA Government started with a procurement price of wheat of Rs. 580, ended Rs.630. In a five-year period they increased it from Rs. 580 to Rs. 630. In the fourth year of our Government we have increased it from Rs. 630 in the year we came to Rs. 850. So, it was Rs. 50 in five years and Rs. 220 in four years. That is one.
Secondly, I was the Finance Minister in Mr. Gujral’s Government who wrote off a part of Punjab’s cost of security measures when they were fighting terrorism. I have returned to Government, six years later, to write off the remaining part. Therefore, the entire cost of security operations, roughly Rs. 8,000 crore or so, was written off for Punjab, recognizing the valiant struggle put up by the people of Punjab and the suffering they went through at the time of the struggle against terrorists.
I do not think this is a blame game. The point is the point which Hoodaji made. We must give more to farmers. But, if we give a better price to farmers, our consumers must be willing to bear a slightly higher price. There is this issue about what the middleman makes. But that can only be got over if you are willing to accept structural changes in the manner in which produce moves from farm to retail store. But we are not willing to look at structural changes there. On farm to retail store, we want a structural change; people are not willing to accept that. If price of rice or wheat goes up by one rupee a kilo people are not willing to accept that. Then how does the farmer get a better price?
I think, the point that was made is not to blame each other. We have all been in Government. We will always be in Government. There will be turns. People will be in Government. Badal saheb himself was Agriculture Minister. His friends were in Finance Ministry. His colleagues were in Government. The point is – what is it that we have done, what is it that can be done. This must be discussed dispassionately. I have told you what we have done. We have given Rs. 220 increase in procurement price in four years. We have written off Punjab’s entire cost of security operations in the 1980s and 1990s.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Badal saheb, would you like to respond?
SHRI BHUPINDER SINGH HOODA : I want to definitely tell one thing about natural resources. Capt. Amarinder Singh and Badal Saheb are the same because he abrogated the water agreement which was signed by five Chief Ministers including the Prime Minister here in Delhi.
SHRI PRAKASH SINGH BADAL : Actually, this forum is not to blame each other.
SHRI BHUPINDER SINGH HOODA : I am not blaming.
SHRI PRAKASH SINGH BADAL : But we must find out some solutions. I suggest that there is one solution for this that the prices of the foodgrains and other crops should be attached to a price index as the employees are getting enhanced payments etc. and other things. As the price index raises, in the same percentage the prices of agricultural produces should be fixed. There should be a formula.
Let us see that by increasing Rs. 200 or Rs. 300, how much the economy of the farmer has now been increased? That is to be studied. I think, the first thing that I would request the Hon’ble Finance Minister is to study by a Central team, to study the farmers’ condition in Punjab and Haryana. We have no quarrel with other States. They are our brothers, they are our friends. We always cooperate with each other. My main aim is that the farmers who contribute for the country should not be as bad in economics as others. This is my point.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : We will discuss that also. I think Hooda saheb has to go.
SHRI BHUPINDER SINGH HOODA : I have given you my speech. Thank you very much. It contains the points.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Thank you very much. I think we have got another bigger State now - Madhya Pradesh. We are discussing agriculture and in Madhya Pradesh his predecessor came on the promise of BSP – not Bahujan Samaj Party but bijli, sadak, paani type of slogans that she gave and agriculture was not part of that at that time. Are you doing anything for agriculture and do you agree with what Mr. Badal said or what Mr. Chidambaram said? Where are you between these? Do you agree or do you differ with them?
SHRI SHIVRAJ SINGH CHAUHAN, HON’BLE CHIEF MINISTER, MADHYA PRADESH : [In Hindi] At the very outset I will talk about ‘BSP’ only. You have raised the issue. From the angle of infrastructure, Madhya Pradesh was very weak three-and-a-half years ago. In our State, there was no electricity, no roads, shortage of water. I would like to tell you that in these three-and-a-half years, some 25,000 kilometres of roads were constructed by us in Madhya Pradesh. If we see the angle of electricity, today we are in a better position than all of our neighbouring States. After the re-organization of Madhya Pradesh, the electricity that we have produced from our own resources, up to three years back was 29,090 MW and in these three or three-and-a-half years we have added a figure of 2,200 MW in it and by December this year we would be able to produce a figure of 3,150 MW of power. Our position has improved compared to the neighbouring States.
If we take the aspect of water, after Independence, in Madhya Pradesh a capacity of 21 lakh hectares was created for irrigation in fifty years’ period. In these three-and-a-half years and the coming one-and-a-half years together, we are successful in creating a capacity of 13 lakh hectares of new land for irrigation purpose. The old irrigation projects that were there, which could not be completed for even 30 years, we have worked to complete them very fast. I talked to you about bijli, paani and sadak.
But if we talk about agriculture, I accept that in this country or in the State of Madhya Pradesh or any other State, as long as the farmer is not happy, we cannot believe that the citizen is happy or the State is happy. I also do not talk of allegation and counter-allegation. But I admit that what we done for bijli, paani etc. the benefit of it has gone to the farmers. I do not want to talk at length about what Madhya Pradesh has done for its farmers. I only want to say this much that we have reduced the rate of interest on agriculture loans. When the farmers lose their crop due to natural disasters, the compensation that was being given at that time has been increased to three times and we have worked hard in this regard. Apart from major irrigation schemes, we have created a chain of small water bodies in Madhya Pradesh by running the Jala Abhishek Abhiyan. We have renovated the old ponds, we constructed new ponds, we constructed check dams, stop dams etc. We have created a scheme called Khet Taalab Yojana that we will give subsidy to the farmer to construct a pond in the farm itself. We are giving a subsidy of up to Rs. 50,000 under Balram Tayal scheme. We are giving it to the farmers so that the water that is collected in his farm would help in increasing the level of groundwater and also provide irrigation from its own resources.
We have taken many efforts like these to help the farmers and agriculture. Hon’ble Minister Shri Chidambaram is sitting here. I would like to make one appeal. The point of Shri Badal is right. I do not want to talk about allegation or counter-allegation. Sitting here, we cannot definitely feel or assess the difficulty of the farmer. It is not the question as to how much the Government has given. The question is – are we able to give a price which would benefit to the farmer or not. If we are not able to give a price of profit to the farmer, then it is a fact. For this, I feel that there are three or four things which should be done and which are very essential.
It is only to the farmers in our country that we are not able to give fertilizers in time, we are not able to give full electricity to him, we are not able to provide sufficient water. Despite all this, we expect that he fills up all our bowls of foodgrains. Here, my appeal or my prayer to you is this. In this year itself, as far as I know, the farmer needs a fertilizer subsidy of Rs. 50,000 crore which he needs. We made a provision in the Budget for Rs. 22,000 crore. In the meeting that was held on 3rd April it was told that whatever is the need for fertilizer, it would be given for Madhya Pradesh. Later, we got a letter that – no, Madhya Pradesh or other States should import for themselves. In such situations, we continue to make allegations or counter-allegations; but ultimately the loss is that of the farmer. We have not made sufficient provision that is needed for irrigation. We did not make sufficient arrangement for provision of electricity.
When the question of crop insurance comes, we say that you consider Tehsil as a unit or a Patwari-Halka as a unit. As long as we take the farmer as a unit and compensate his loss, till such time the farmer cannot survive because once his crop is damaged, then for five years he cannot survive and he is badly affected. He has to repay the old loan; he has to meet the expenses throughout the year and make arrangements for other things. Therefore, the three-four things that I said are important. They are – proper arrangement for irrigation, provision of sufficient electricity, giving fertilizer in time, treating farmer as a unit for crop insurance scheme etc. The most important thing is that we should give the farmer a remunerative price on his production. Till such time we do this, whatever allegations or counter-allegations we make, we cannot provide for the welfare of the farmer.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : I heard your point about as long as we do not give the remunerative price to the agricultural products, they will not survive. Every person talks about the farmer. In this Parliament itself about 30 or 35 per cent of the people have declared their profession as agriculture. They are more than 35%. In every Parliament they have been a largest single block. Even after that, the plight of agriculture has not improved as all of you are complaining. I am not an agriculturist and, therefore, I cannot say. The question is – why rural India has not developed. All of you are Chief Ministers. Roads are constructed in cities; flyovers are done in cities, colleges are opened in urban areas and even your SEZs are opened near cities. Everything is happening near the urban areas. Mr. Chidambaram is sitting here. He is also giving concessions to SEZs which are near the urban areas. Some of them are, of course, in rural areas. But there is not a demand there.
Why is it that there are no policies which reflect more and more expenditure in the actual development of rural cluster? Why there is no expenditure on villages or on farmers? Is it a fact or is it wrong? I do not know. Mr. Gogoi, would you agree with me that you do not spend enough money on development of rural areas as you spend in urban areas?
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SHRI TARUN GOGOI, HON’BLE CHIEF MINISTER, ASSAM : I must agree also that we have not given priority. This is the first time the Government of India has given priority for the development of the rural areas. There are the rural employment schemes, backward region schemes etc. All these schemes have given priority for rural areas. Without improving rural India, India cannot improve as 80% of the people live in rural areas. Definitely we have to give much more priority to the rural areas. I am happy that our present Union Government is giving much more priority. They have realized that there should be inclusive growth means that the rural India should develop. I am also giving much more priority to the rural areas.
Even in education side, I am giving priority. I want to have a model school in every block. I have seen the difference between rural education and urban education. Good schools are coming up charging a fees of up to Rs. 5,000 or Rs. 3,000 even in a State like Assam. The point is whether the poor students can pay this or not. That is why late Shri Rajiv Gandhi introduced Navodaya Vidyalaya concept. We want that type of more and more educational institutions in the rural areas. Otherwise there will be a great discrimination. Education is number one priority. Without education, whether in agriculture or in any other field, there is nothing. So, topmost priority should be in education. I do feel that there should be more investment. I am happy that the Government has started this. I am also giving much more priority to the rural areas. Frankly speaking, during the previous Government the State’s share was only Rs. 20 crore. Now, because of my effort, the situation has improved and I released Rs. 300 crore. In the same way, even in Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan during the previous Government the amount was zero. Now I released about more than Rs. 300 crore. That is why I am saying it. The whole thrust of Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan is in rural area.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Those who come from the North-East States, for example these States compared to the rest of the country, are not as developed in terms of infrastructure, rural structure etc. because you are getting lot of Central subsidy. The maximum amount of Central subsidy goes to the North-East. What kind of development have you achieved?
SHRI TARUN GOGOI : I will tell you. As Shri Badal has said, because of the creation of East Pakistan, the whole of North-East, even the whole of Assam has a link up with them. Our road links have been disrupted; the rail links have been disrupted; the river links have been disrupted. The whole area has been landlocked. Also, in the education field we came late. Why to speak of North-East, even in Assam, our Universities or engineering colleges are less. We never had an engineering college before Independence. We are latecomers. We cannot be compared with others. Now, today they are coming out. There are two Central Universities. The IIT is also there. They are going to give one IIM. We want more and more educational institutions. Now, even thousands and thousands of boys go out of the North-East. We want to have more and more institutions.
In fact, I am inviting you. I have passed a Bill for the private Universities also. But very few will come immediately. Frankly speaking, some have shown interest. The Government of India has to go in a very big way, particularly in the education field.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : What do you think should be done?
SHRI TARUN GOGOI : In infrastructure also, the same thing is there. For example, there is the other problem. Because of the economic backwardness, the problem of insurgency is there. The road communication was so bad, not to speak of other things. When I became an MP in 1971, to reach Guwahati from my constituency – which is a little developed district – it took 60 hours. There was no broad gauge line. Only recently they have introduced a broad gauge line. There was no bridge across Brahmaputra river, excepting only one. We have become so latecomers as a result of economic backwardness. The insurgency is there. The unemployment problem is there. Now the Government has given some incentive. But after liberalisation who will go to Assam? Whatever incentive you may give, because of lack of infrastructure, road connectivity, it is no use.
The previous Government spent only Rs. 100 crore on roads. I am spending Rs. 2,500 crore on roads. Roads and bridges are more important. These are the topmost priority in the rural areas. Without roads and without bridges no development will take place.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : But you are talking about education also.
SHRI TARUN GOGOI : Yes. Education is also number one priority. In these days, because of the competitive world, whether agriculture or anything, how could you develop without education? You need more skilled persons. Today we are facing a lot of problems. Even the expenditure of money also will not last unless you have got the trained persons. I will give an example. There is a shortage of contractors in Assam. You are giving a good amount of money. There is a shortage of materials also. For example, for the roads we need more contractors, we need more machinery. We have to adopt the new technology. That is the reason for which we have to go in a very big way, particularly for the North-East. It is a part of the country. They have given some incentives. It is not that they have not given incentives. They have given new schemes also. But they have to go in a very big way to set up a good institute. Let there be a PPP.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : You have got the richest Finance Minister sitting here, since Independence. He has got lot of money. He is very liberal also both in his outlook and efforts.
SHRI TARUN GOGOI : I do agree.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : I am just raising a question. You have got a most liberal Finance Minister and you have got a problem. The problem is that his currency printing presses will be under-utilised from next year because he will not be printing notes to give the money. I am requesting you – any demand which you want to raise now, from the Finance Minister that I want this much money to make Assam 100% literate, you can do it. Do you want money or you will create your money?
SHRI TARUN GOGOI : No, let them establish their own institution; I do not mind.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : You do not have any demand from him.
SHRI TARUN GOGOI : Demand is there.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : What is it?
SHRI TARUN GOGOI : There is the demand that the whole expenses should be borne by the Government for setting up a good institute.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Okay. Mr. Kamat, about agriculture, or any demand that you have on the Finance Minister, please tell. The Congress Chief Ministers are a little liberal it seems. They are satisfied. You must be happy.
SHRI DIGAMBAR KAMAT, HON’BLE CHIEF MINISTER, GOA : Hon’ble Union Finance Minister, Chief Ministers, Prabhu Chawlaji and my friends : As far as agriculture is concerned, agriculture has never been the backbone of Goa’s economy. What had happened was we had lots of dams, we have plenty of water available. But we do not have more percent of marginal farmers. That is why we never give subsidy, power subsidy to any farmer. Our farmers normally sustain. Supposing there is a crash in the market, they sometimes keep their goods inside and all. Only for a section of the society, farming community – we can identify them as marginal farmers – the State Government has taken some pains to design some schemes and we give them support. In sugarcane we give them support price of Rs. 200. The State gives them the support price and all.
In Goa, right from the Portuguese days, mining initially had been the backbone of Goa’s economy. Lately, tourism has been the backbone of our economy. That is the thing. As far as infrastructure and others are concerned, we have been giving lot of thrust on infrastructure. But one thing is there. Goa suffered a lot because of Gadgil formula. The Gadgil formula helped those States which did not perform and punished those States which performed. This was a unique example. It is lately that after Shri Chidambaram had taken over and then we changed the entire system of funding the States. That is why Goa is now getting some more additional benefits.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : You have the advantage of half of Delhi going to Goa every year and spending lot of money there.
SHRI DIGAMBAR KAMAT : I agree with Shri Badalji that some States were given special status by the earlier Government. But that indirectly hit Goa. We were developing Goa as a pharmaceutical hub and because of this special status given to some States, lots of our industries switched over from Goa to other States. We have been pleading with the Finance Minister that we should be compensated for this because we are indirectly hit by this special status.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : I think another North-East State has something to say to Mr. Chidambaram in terms of infrastructure or agriculture.
EDUCATION MINISTER, MIZORAM : [Name not identified] I am the Education Minister, not the Agriculture Minister. Hon’ble Union Finance Minister, respected Chief Ministers, ladies and gentlemen : I am very happy to be with you this evening. I am very happy and I extend my warm welcome to all of you. I do not know much about agriculture position of other States. I want to talk about the food production in Mizoram and the educational institutions which have to be developed. Mizoram depends on agriculture. As you know, it is very hilly in nature. Construction of roads is very difficult in Mizoram. The present Government is trying to construct the agriculture ring road and horticulture ring road also. Even if the production is there, the agricultural products have to be transported and it is very difficult. There is a problem in transportation of agricultural products. There is a problem in Mizoram.
What I want to request the Union Finance Minister is – construction of agriculture ring road and the horticulture ring road for easy transportation of the agricultural products. Regarding education, I am in charge of higher education there in Mizoram, we have taken necessary steps to improve the quality in higher institutions and we formed the quality assurance cell at direct level under the chairmanship of the Director and also at State level a Quality Coordination Committee was formed. All the colleges in Mizoram should get the accreditation status for improvement of quality.
Besides this, we want to implement ISO norms also for higher quality in college education and for that we are taking all possible steps to improve the quality of education in higher institutions and also in the primary schools and in the high school level, middle school level also where we have taken various steps to improve the quality of education.
I come to learn that the Hon’ble Prime Minister has announced the establishment of an IIT and IIM and polytechnic also and industrial training institute. That is what we need. There in Mizoram we do not have any engineering college. The only professional institution we have is two polytechnics. There is a proposal for establishment of three other polytechnics which has already been submitted to the Ministry of Human Resource Development about one month ago. I think that project will be approved by the Central Government. That is also what I want to request to the Hon’ble Union Finance Minister here for success of the establishment of these institutions. We also want the IIT or IIM or science education to be established there in Mizoram and that is what we need there. Thank you.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Thank you. I think you may make a small presentation because he has to answer and leave in five minutes.
A DELEGATE : I will be very brief.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : You have got the maximum power in the Central Government any way. DMK has got all the good Ministries and whatever extra you want to ask you can ask.
SHRI THANGAM THENARASU, MINISTER FOR SCHOOL EDUCATION, GOVERNMENT OF TAMIL NADU: Definitely. We are at ease to ask any of our demands from the Finance Minister.
Respected Finance Minister, respected Chief Ministers, representatives from other States and distinguished guests : Good afternoon to everyone. My name is Thangam Thenarasu. I am from the State of Tamil Nadu. I am holding the School Education Department portfolio. I really thank you for this opportunity and would like to say very few words because our Finance Minister has to leave. Basically when we talk about the inclusive growth, it is not only the agriculture but also the education and health which play a very major role in development of any State.
As far as agriculture is concerned, the State of Tamil Nadu has given lot of relief to the farmers of the State. It is our Chief Minister, Dr. Kalaignar, when he was in power in the late 1980s who has given free electricity to all the farmers in the State. That was a very great move at that stage. Even when we took over charge last year, he announced that ‘if we are returned to power, we will write off the cooperative loans of all the farmers’. As we have promised, the moment we took charge, immediately we had written off all the loans to the tune of around Rs. 7,000 crore. This is for the agriculture development. This will help our farmers to a great extent.
Notwithstanding to this, when it comes to the question of education, we strongly believe that the quality education will have to be our prime concern. Yes, we do have schools, and thanks to our Finance Minister, he has been very liberal in funding our educational projects, health projects. Various schemes are being implemented under Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan. The main concern was quality. Yes, we talk about quality, but it has not really taken place in many of the schools in the country, especially in primary schools. It is because we want all the classrooms to be child-centric whereas in practice it is the teacher-centric. This is mainly due to the fact that the entire classrooms are governed by the textbooks. This time we thought of evolving a method; we wanted to bring in a method in our State. This is called as Activity-based Learning. In this method the children have their liberty; ample opportunities are provided to them for self-learning, group-learning, peer-learning etc. All such opportunities are provided to the student community. This is a very great success in our State. This has been scaled up to about 40,000 primary schools which are covered under Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan. This is a great success story. Even the Central Government has commended this in their recent reports.
When it comes to the question of health, yes, we do have lot many projects. Even when we are discussing today here, a super speciality hospital is being opened by our Chief Minister in the town of Salem. It is not that we are concentrating only on the urban areas. We take the health programmes to the rural areas. We believe that prevention is better than cure. We have developed a specific health programme and we go to the real villages, we approach them, we take them for medical treatment, we provide them free treatment over there and if any special treatment is required, we will take them to the hospitals nearby. I think the State of Tamil Nadu is really doing well under the leadership of our Chief Minister and with ample support from our Finance Minister. Yes, the State is really doing very well I can say.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Thank you very much.
SHRI SHIVRAJ SINGH CHAUHAN : I will speak only one sentence. Consolidated development and complete development are possible only when we have only one view. On the one hand we give special facilities to some States and some backward States like Madhya Pradesh are left behind. If you take the average figures concerning Railways, Madhya Pradesh is very backward. But Shri Lalu Prasad has been saying that the State which gives 50% money, they will make railway line first in that State – on a 50:50 basis. Under Indira Awas Kuteer scheme we have made it in such a way that, though there is three times the population of Kerala in Madhya Pradesh, Kerala has got more Indira Awas Kuteer schemes. In Madhya Pradesh there is 30% of forest. We are facing the shortcomings of it. The entire country takes benefit of it. Our schemes are sanctioned lately and we have to pay more money to establish alternative forests. This type of disparity should not be there.
In this connection I say that there should be a consolidated development and all-round development; but that dream is not being fulfilled. I am not speaking about any State-specific matter. The view should be the same for all the States. The backward States should be paid more attention and we should ensure development there. I feel that this should be so.
SHRI PRAKASH SINGH BADAL : I think the problems are many. But the most important problem for which the Central Government and the State Governments should think is about unemployment and under-employment especially in rural areas. I want to bring this to your notice. If this matter is not considered and if a solution is not found out jointly, then after 10-15 years there will be a revolution in the country. I must tell you. Those young boys who have passed their graduation, some have done 10+2, and they are sitting idle in the villages and doing nothing. We are doing as much as we can do. We are opening skill centres in the villages. We have masons, carpenters, fitters etc. and small-small trades. For six months they can be given training. This type of training should be given to them. This problem should be tackled at the highest level in consultation with the States.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Anyway, I was expecting some kind of a common minimum national programme, not the common minimum programme which the UPA and Left have got it. But, I think, that will not be happening. I have been trying for the last five years to get some kind of a common minimum nationally accepted programme among the Chief Ministers. But they come back to the same thing – I am not getting this, I am not getting that etc. Mr. Chidambaram, you have heard it. If there is a need also for some kind of a not CMP, please tell about it.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM : I think these criticisms are exaggerated and misplaced. For example, at the last NDC Meeting, Badal saheb will recall, it was for the first time exclusively devoted to agriculture. We adopted a resolution in which the Centre accepted six obligations and the States accepted six obligations. You will remember, Chauhan saheb.
That document is there. The Centre will discharge those six obligations and the States will discharge those six obligations for agriculture. How many in this audience know about it? Not many. Why? How many newspapers and magazines gave publicity to it? If Badal saheb makes a harsh remark, not intended to hurt anyone, that will get publicity. If Mr. Chauhan replies in a jocular way, that will get publicity. But the fact that all the States of India, all the Chief Ministers present, adopted a resolution at the NDC on agriculture with six and six obligations. If all of them are implemented, India’s agriculture will be put back on the four-plus percent growth track.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Let us rededicate to that.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM : I believe nothing is beyond solution. For every problem that society faces, there is a solution. What we need is goodwill; what we need is good governance. What is absent is, more often goodwill is absent but we get together and generate goodwill. Then good governance is absent. Money is not the problem. You deliver on the ground, you spend the money, you see that roads are executed according to the quality standards, schools are built according to quality standards, teachers are appointed according to qualifications, teachers attend classes – if you ensure good governance, a great part of India’s problems can be solved and good governance, I again repeat, is not only a Centre’s concern. The Centre can provide money, the Centre can help in devising schemes. But, ultimately, every square inch of India is governed by a Chief Minister. So, good governance ultimately – I am not passing the buck; the buck for good governance in executing projects rests with the Chief Minister.
Thank you. I am afraid I will have to leave.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Thank you. I think PC being a good advocate, as all concluded at the last word, ultimately it is your responsibility. If there is no development you are responsible. The buck stops at your desk. You govern the State and, therefore, it is so.
SHRI SHIVRAJ SINGH CHAUHAN : We also said some things.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Let us agree on that. But he has made a point that all of you have agreed to certain kind of recommendations – six-point formula – which all of you should agree. Badal saheb, you must be a party to that. Solution for agriculture is you implement your six-point resolutions, they will implement their six-point resolutions and on that depends the growth of agriculture. Thank you Mr. Chidambaram.
Friends, we will go back to the next session. I will invite the other Chief Ministers for another session.
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SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Friends, for the second part, let me invite the Chief Minister Gen. Khanduri. Please take your seat near Shri Badal. I invite Shri Vilasrao Deshmukh, Raja Virbhadra Singh, Mr. Sushil Modi, Mr. K.V. Singh Deo from Orissa. Before we start the debate, I request Mr. Parthasarathy to give us the findings, what he suggests about infrastructure or whatever he has got in mind. Mr. Parthasarathy, you get only five to six minutes.
A DELEGATE : This is a presentation which Shri Parthasarathy, Chairman and Managing Director of IL&FS is making. It is about developing human skill sets for inclusive growth. The Chief Ministers who spoke earlier, and I believe the Chief Ministers who are here now, will both benefit from this presentation.
SHRI PARTHASARATHY, CHAIRMAN AND MANAGING DIRECTOR, IL & FS: Hon’ble Chief Ministers, Aroon Purie, Prabhuji, distinguished guests : I think the previous session was very very lucid and I believe one of the most important takeaways of that session was the Hon’ble CM of Punjab’s comment on skill sets. I was not aware that he was going to make that comment. But, we have been really talking on the same page.
We have been very pleased to be associated with India Today in these annual meetings and in every annual meeting we try to present one theme which would be of interest across States – big, small, North, South, East, West. This year we chose the theme of skill set upgradation which is very closely interwoven with the debate which took place earlier.
I think the main issue has been that we have always seen employment being a collateral byproduct of development. So, if we get some economic development going, we see that is resulting in employment. Actually, the converse is now becoming true; that we need employable people in order to have economic development. The growth in employment is nowhere close to the double-digit figures of growth in economy. So, we are seeing today a very very stark possibility of the lack of employability hindering growth much more than any other factor on the radar screen.
I think it is now fairly widely accepted premise that public private partnerships are the way forward for achieving sustainable growth, sustainable efficiency and good accountability and governance also. I am going to draw a lot on various magazines and publications including U.N.-sponsored reports on employment in order to bolster my case. But, very simply stated, as economy progresses we have less and less demand for unskilled labour. We have more and more demand for vocationally aptitude people. Badal saheb, you have mentioned trades. There are 5,000 trades listed in ILO publications and we are very very short in most of these trades.
A well-functioning vocational training system seems to be the order of the day. We are very good in producing IITs and IIMs. I appreciate the desire of some of the Chief Ministers to have higher end education in the State. But, I think, the problem is really coming at the lower end. We have a very large workforce. It is global. I mean, by global standards, it is an incredibly large workforce. But, unfortunately, 93% of the workforce is in the informal sector and not in the formal sector. So, being in the informal sector they are bereft of almost all the benefits of employment that the more formal sector provides.
What are we losing by doing nothing? It has been estimated that each employed person adds something like 2,000 US dollars equivalent or a lakh of rupees to the economy. So, by not having manpower and the shortage being as much as 15 million we are having a direct loss to GDP of almost 30 billion US dollars per year. In every economy, India is no different, I think Finance Minister had it right when he said that the laws of economics are the same in India as they are in every other part of the world. Similarly, when it comes to employment, it is not the large factories which contribute to employment. I have had the privilege of seeing the latest motorcar plant put up by Mr. Tata and the polyester filament yarn plant put up by Mr. Ambani. They employ very very few people. But the small and medium enterprises are not only the backbone of the economy in terms of GDP growth but they are also the fundamental providers of pan India employment.
I will skip some of these slides in the interest of time. But essentially the picture is very bleak when you look at rural India and urban India in terms of the availability of skill sets. What is more disturbing is that if you look at where India is positioned across the nations of the world, we have got only 5% of our population vocationally trained. It may not be, perhaps, appropriate to compare us with Botswana which is a very small country, which is diamond-rich. But, no matter which type of country you compare yourself with, you are abysmally off the path as far as vocational training is concerned. The manpower requirements are immense. We keep talking about 9%, 10%, 8% etc. But where are the people coming from? It is this gap in vocational training which we need to address through our PPP approach.
We started a small pilot project with the Ministry of Rural Development. This was in the back of another initiative that we took with the Textile Ministry of the Government of India where we are setting up something like 30 textile parks all over the country. They are being commissioned every month, one a month over the next 30 months. But having commissioned these parks we do not have labour to fill these parks. We, sometimes, have the absurd situation where we even have migrant labour.
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They go as far as Coimbatore for employment. There is something out of sync as far as this was concerned.
Given this and on a request of the Textile industry, we have put in place a programme for making 1,00,000 people employable by the textile sector. This initiative has really come from the Textile Association. It has been very heavily supported by the Ministry of Rural Development of the Government of India. It is targeted at below the poverty line (BPL) people and the Ministry is giving something like Rs. 5,000 for contributing to the cost of this programme provided the person who is trained is subsequently employed. The Ministry is giving Rs. 5,000 per person and industry is paying Rs. 2,500 per person; giving a total of Rs. 7,500. This is not a very large amount of money. But you are making 1,00,000 people who are otherwise unemployable, employable in a modern textile park.
The focus, therefore, is on ITIs today. We have got 1,400 ITIs all over the States. Most of these ITIs are working with very little Budget, no organizational and institutional mechanisms. We have been working with the Central Government on what we can do with the ITIs. The Finance Minister earlier this year was good enough to include in his Budget a proposal to keep as much as Rs. 750 crore for the upgradation of ITIs. But the ITIs belong to the States; they do not belong to the Centre. We have started an initiative with various States to look at how do we take these ITIs, upgrade them. They have got good premises; but run-down buildings; no facilities at all, no teachers. How do we make these world-class and cater to the adjacent employable population?
This is an ongoing discussion which we are having with the Ministry. We are working with FICCI as well as CII in this initiative so that whatever curriculum was required is really designed by industry. It cannot be designed in Delhi. It has to be designed by industry based on the catchment area of each ITI. So, if a particular ITI is agriculturally based, then we need people trained in that ITI to fit into the requirements of agriculture or textiles or steel or mining whatever be the case. It is a very interesting programme. We have got a lot of support from the Centre on this and we will be coming to each of the States in due course and talking to them and we hope we can take this forward with you. Thank you very much.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Thank you very much Partha. I think all the Chief Ministers will take it. I will send the hard copy of your presentation. Let them study it and then get back to us.
The real issue starts now. We were discussing earlier, politics of inclusive growth. Now I am going to discuss in economics of it, if the Chief Ministers are interested in economics of it, economics of inclusive growth. Gen. Khanduri, who always led the revolution of road construction revolution when he was Minister here, and he is now the Chief Minister, and he is here. As Mr. Chidambaram said, Chief Ministers are the real rulers. Now he has become Chief Minister. He has got very little time at his disposal because he has to manage such a big territory. Earlier he was only managing some of the roads. But now he has to manage a small State, but bigger in terms of area, a very difficult area.
The question is, as we were discussing earlier, agriculture and now infrastructure. I requested Mr. Badal to stay here because he is the senior-most Chief Minister. He has some interesting things to say also. Gen. Khanduri, you are the first-timer Chief Minister. Now you are senior in terms of experience; but junior in terms of being the Chief Minister. What is your take on agriculture and education, the basics of it? Do you believe in good politics or good economics?
MAJ. GEN. BHUWAN CHAND KHANDURI (RETD.), HON’BLE CHIEF MINISTER, UTTARAKHAND : Thank you Mr. Chawla. I am thankful to your organization and all the people here. I will not take time on the preliminaries. You are right; I am a brand new Chief Minister with just six months completed. I got elected to the State Legislature only on 2nd of this month. So, as a Chief Minister, I do not think I can be not arrogant at all to say that what I am saying is based on my experience or be direct take. We have senior people sitting here.
On the basic thing about economics of growth, whatever experience I have in the politics, which is not too long, it is only 16-17 years, I find that the economic sense finds a very little place in our consideration and our achievement for growth. The earlier one which we were discussing, the inclusive and exclusive things, we are including people, investing on them who are our vote banks. We are excluding people who need money, who need growth – whether it is education or just ITIs as just been talked about, or roads or infrastructure. We first see that the economics of growth, in my opinion, has degenerated; where it finds very little place vis-à-vis our populist activities and our aim to get to the vote bank politics.
The Hon’ble Finance Minister has given us a lot of data, how they are doing very well and how we are giving money and how the States are stinkingly rich; there is no pressure for money. I do not know; my State owns Rs. 16,000 crore of debt. I have a Budget of only about Rs. 4,000 crore – it is a little over that this year and I have to pay in terms of return of loan and interest alone around Rs. 500 crore. In 2012 when I start paying the bulk of my principal, my State will be paying Rs. 2,500 crore to Rs. 3,000 crore per year in terms of return of loan out of the Budget which is now presently Rs. 4,300 crore or so. I do not know where this money is. It may be on paper somewhere. But, when I have to do any development, I have to invest money, I am all the time constrained. I have no money. Maybe, I am wrong; I am not an economist. Some day I can get some words of wisdom from Mr. Chidambaram. I do not know if the States are at all well. They may be well on paper. But, do they have the freedom to invest in the places they want? Can you use this term ‘economy’ as a driver for growth? I think, in my opinion, it is not so.
We have problems; different problems. I come from a hilly State; a border State which has been under-developed. We came into existence on 9th November, 2000. Till that time, we used to say that we have eight districts; now we have 13 districts. We used to say that out of eight districts, except a small part of one district, all others were zero-industry districts. Now when we are trying to get industrialization, we get some concessions. I accept this was done in NDA Government time that we got some excise concession for certain States. Badalji is here. He is a very senior and respected person. He gets financially affected by what I get. Somewhere this economy should be worked out that he does not get hurt and I get the benefit. I do not know why we cannot do something like that.
There are many issues as far as the economy of growth is concerned which, in my opinion, are not being tackled; not that we have lack of information, not that we have lack of data, not that we have lack of solution available, but I think it is lack of will, political will. Therefore, whatever we may say about the economy and the country growing and 9% growth and all that, where is this 9% growth going? Earlier, in the first session Badal saheb or somebody said – 30% are below poverty line. These are the people who are getting lesser and lesser every year and who are getting worse and worse in terms of growth. So, what is the use of saying that we are growing at 9%? That 9% may be going to some 10% people who are in the billionaires’ list of the world or some industries who have gone into Fortune-500 or some list.
Therefore, unless we want to tackle the base, as Badal saheb said earlier on, we should not start from top. We should start from the bottom and try and use the economic strength or the financial fiscal power of the country to first tackle there and then only you will be able to have a stable base and probably a good structure above. Therefore, in my opinion, today our entire political system has become, and I do not think we should blame politicians alone, because the people also want that way. Just now somebody was saying – we have exempted this, we have exempted that. If you give free electricity, free power, you might come back to the power next time. But if you do not do it and take some strong actions, then you have very difficult time.
Therefore, this economy or economics of growth, I think, needs to have a relook at the national level. I think all the Parties should get together and decide what is good for the nation and irrespective of the political consequences, take those steps. This is possible only when all the political Parties get together and take some decision.
I will give you one example. About the family planning and population control, a lot of data is being given. Mr. Chidambaram said that in the NDA time we gave Rs. 50 increase and now they are giving Rs. 220. I could not ask Mr. Chidambaram; but now I want to know what was the price index in those NDA times and how many times the prices of sugar, wheat and pulses have gone up? That Rs. 50 is probably worth more than this Rs. 220 today. Therefore, let us not juggle around with these datas and figures. I was just telling you about the political will. To quote an example about this family planning and population control, everybody says we should do it, because we are not achieving the results the population is outgrowing the developmental activities.
What has happened to this front? In 1991 I came to the Parliament for the first time. In 1992 a Bill was introduced in the Rajya Sabha by the then Congress Government by Mr. M.L. Fotedar. That Bill is still alive in the Rajya Sabha. Nobody has the courage to get that Bill passed – this Government or that Government. No political Party wants to hurt certain people. Why? It is because that is a vote bank. How can you grow? The population is galloping. You have no control. You can invest only a certain amount of money.
That question has come about other issues. I just want to bring two issues from the side of my State. First of all, I said about the industrialization. Secondly, the Chief Minister, Madhya Pradesh talked about environment. He said 30% forest is in his State. Friends, I have got 67% forest in my State. When I want a road to be constructed I have to go with folded hands to the Ministry of Environment, apart from paying them for compensatory forestation and it takes years. I cannot develop. Today I have got places where two-and-a-half days’ time or two days’ time will be taken for a person to reach a road-head. There is no medical facility, there are no roads. But I cannot make roads because I cannot cut those trees.
At the international level you have got this carbon trading. If the Government of India can get money from any other country for maintaining environment, why should they not be passed on to my State which is maintaining the environment of the country and the world? We are giving lots of water. Badal saheb has said that they are giving water to the nation. I am backward not because of anything else but also because I am not being compensated for the things that will help me in developing. There are other things like that. But, I think, I have taken long time. Thank you very much for giving me this time.
In summing up, in closing, I would only say that if you could, through the media, convey this to all the people, all the political Parties and create an environment where all get together and like the election of the Pope where all the voters, Cardinals sit in a room, they are locked from outside and till the white smoke comes that lock is not opened. I think some of our top leaders need to be put like that. Thank you.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Thank you General saheb. Now the issue which, I think, I am going to debate now, there is a contradiction. Mr. Finance Minister says all of you are very rich States, you have got Rs. 50,000 crore in your pockets and you are still begging for money, you are blaming the Centre. On the other hand, Mr. Badal said that his State is having a debt of Rs. 20,000 crore and people are suffering and you are saying that you have a debt of Rs. 16,000 crore. I have got a Chief Minister sitting next to me who represents Mumbai, which is the richest capital of India, which collects 48% of revenue for the country and his farmers are committing suicide. Sometimes they joke around about the farmers, I think they have withdrawn that remark now.
I would like to know the reality as to how you look from the Centre at the States and how the States look at the Centre from their point of view. Mr. Vilasrao, I do not know you are in a very advantageous position – you are neta, and your beta is abhineta. He is one of the good, emerging actors. You have not learnt acting from him as you will speak reality – I hope. I want to know from you as a neta.
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SHRI VILASRAO DESHMUKH, HON’BLE CHIEF MINISTER, MAHARASHTRA: Thank you very much. All my Chief Minister colleagues, Deputy Chief Minister and friends : Let me first thank India Today for giving us this opportunity to share this dais and put forth some of our views on inclusive growth. The first thing I would like to clear is – when we heard your first debate what I myself felt was that unless and until we have inclusive politics, no economic inclusive growth can be possible. There are certain issues where we need a national consensus. In case of agriculture, education, health, industry there should be some – one, two, three, four – issues on which we have a national consensus. Most of the issues always take the backseat because of the politics.
As a Party we have different policies. But, let there be certain issues – like agriculture. Let us have a common policy. Let there be a long-term policy. Governments may come and may go; but policy should remain. The farmers or the investors should know that whatever Government comes into power, this policy will not be touched. If that kind of a confidence were given, especially in the industrial sector or in the long-term policy of the agriculture or in the case of education, it would be good. Sometimes it is basic education. But the Government changes and definitely they touch the very important policy like education. It should be away from all this kind of politics. You may have certain changes which will benefit the poor persons.
The main agenda of the Eleventh Five-Year Plan is towards a faster and more inclusive growth. As we all know, Mumbai is the commercial capital of this country. We contribute more than 40% to the national exchequer. That is the strength of Mumbai itself. But there are problems as you have rightly said. When the State is bigger our resources are more and still it is indebted. It is not that we have no debts on our head. But we do not bother about those debts because we have a capacity to repay. If the industry takes a loan from the bank and if they have the capacity to repay, why not the States? It is true that now the financial position of every State is better. The Finance Minister has said it because he has an account of every State as to how much money they are having in their treasury. He has the account. But I do not want to go into that.
As the economy is growing at more than 9% and Maharashtra is also growing between 8 to 9 per cent and we hope to grow by 10%, we are concentrating on industry and service sector. These two sectors will definitely contribute to Maharashtra to reach out up to the 10% level. But the basic need of agriculture is there, because 70% people are still dependent on agriculture. Unless and until we reduce the burden on agriculture, agriculture cannot be sustainable. To reduce the burden on agriculture, we have to give some alternate jobs and the alternate jobs only could be created through industrialization, through service sector and for that we need education.
We spend in Maharashtra more than Rs. 10,000 crore on education. As per the guidelines of the Constitution we have to per force concentrate on the students between the age of 6 to 14 on the primary education which is compulsory and free. But, unfortunately, now more of our attention is diverted towards higher education, towards medical education, towards engineering colleges etc. because that is the need of the hour. When the industry is growing, they need skilled manpower and the skilled manpower only could be generated through the IITs, through polytechnics, through engineering colleges, through ITIs and that is the reason Maharashtra is doing very well so far as technical education is concerned. Our every year intake capacity in Maharashtra which we have generated is 1.5 lakh per year. That is our intake capacity and that many graduates and diploma holders come out of the various colleges in Maharashtra. As the economy is booming, as more and more service sectors, I.T. sectors are coming into Maharashtra, there is a mismatch. As on today, in a city like Pune, we are not getting proper engineers and the investors, the industrialists are going to the campuses and the interviews are held in the campuses. So, that is the situation. When economy is growing, definitely whether it is reaching to the poor or not is to be seen or is it only restricted to a handful of people? Our concern, as a Government, is that it should reach out to the common people. There is a divide between urban areas and rural areas.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Is it reaching or not?
SHRI VILASRAO DESHMUKH : That is what I am telling you. It should.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : It is not.
SHRI VILASRAO DESHMUKH : Why it is not reaching – we will have to find out the reasons. That is the reason this Conclave has been organized. We are here to get solutions from these discussions as to how it should reach, what steps the Government should take that it should reach to the common people.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : I would request you to give one solution where it can reach, remove this disparity. As Chief Minister of one of the biggest States, a prosperous State you may tell it.
SHRI VILASRAO DESHMUKH : The first thing the State has to do is to create good educational infrastructure.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Okay, good. I will stop here now. Good educational infrastructure is the precondition for reducing the disparity between the rich and the poor. If the education is there, they might become richer. Shri Modi, you are from Bihar. If you can just give a small brief for two to two-and-a-half minutes, it would be nice because the Hon’ble Vice-President of India is coming early. It is our request to you. Yours is a very big State, you have many problems. In that State people themselves are giving justice to others because the Government is failing. They are killing people on the roads. Please tell what can be done in such a State where people themselves are delivering justice.
SHRI SUSHIL KUMAR MODI, HON’BLE DEPUTY CHIEF MINISTER, BIHAR : Shri Chawlaji and friends : In Bihar, the type of State that we inherited, you all must be knowing that we are struggling with floods. As on today more than two crore population of Bihar is struggling with floods and out of 38 districts, 23 districts are under the floods. More than 600 people have died because of floods. In such a State, since you have given me two minutes, from all the poverty alleviation programmes the poor people are not getting the benefits of all the poverty alleviation programmes. This problem is there in each and every State. There is a crisis of implementation. They are not getting the benefits.
It appears to me and I have said to Shri Chidambaram that whatever money the Government of India spends on different schemes for poverty alleviation, they should close down all those schemes and give all that money to every poor man in his account directly, then may be it would be more beneficial. There is so much of corruption and so much of leakage. There is a crisis of implementation. If to every poor person gets some Rs. 2,000 or Rs. 2,500 every month in his account, then this poverty alleviation can be done.
You have been talking about education. Shri Chidambaram has left now. We have appointed more than 1,20,000 teachers in the last one year. This year we are going to appoint another 1,50,000 teachers. We started this initiative because of Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan. We were getting money from Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan – 75% contribution was from the Central Government and we have to pay only 25%. But recently, the Central Government has taken a decision that now they will give only 65% and the States will have to provide for 35%. In a State like Bihar, where there is so much poverty and so much backwardness, we have taken such a big initiative in education. But suddenly the Government of India has changed the parameters that instead of 75:25 it would be 65:35. In such a situation, whatever big work that we have started in education, how can we implement all that big work in education?
About women reservation, Bihar is the only State in this country which has provided for 50% of reservation for women in the local body elections. Today in the countryside of Bihar there is a silent revolution. I am not seeing any women here. In our State, if any meeting is held, you can find the Gram Panchayat women representatives in large numbers. We have taken such a big step. I came to know that Madhya Pradesh has also taken such a decision.
Just now we were talking about agriculture. Bihar is the only State in this country which has abolished the APMC Act. In other States they are trying to amend the APMC Act. But we took a revolutionary stand by abolishing this Agriculture produce Marketing Committee Act. In the last two years we have taken a lot of steps. You were talking about law and order. Only in yesterday’s Hindustan Times the figures have appeared about National Crime Bureau. Bihar has a higher conviction rate than Maharashtra and Orissa. We have a 15% conviction rate. Incidents are happening. Take the backward States, eastern India like Assam, West Bengal, Bihar, Orissa. All these States which have remained backward, for them if some special scheme is not prepared it would be difficult.
Since the Hon’ble Vice-President of India is likely to come now, I will tell only one thing at the end. When we talk about inclusive growth, it is like a train running with an engine only without connecting the bogies and people to the engine. The engine of growth is running. The train is running, only the engine is running, without bogies and people in the bogies. If there is no inclusive growth, particularly in backward States in the eastern India, it would be difficult. The southern States and the western States have made progress. This regional imbalance is there. To remove this imbalance, a very big role of the Central Government is very much needed. Thank you.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : I think, the Hon’ble Vice-President of India is here. I will apologise to the other Chief Ministers because I cannot break the protocol. Raja saheb, you will excuse me. You have to make a presentation. If you can speak for two minutes with the permission of the Hon’ble Vice-President, it is okay. Can I, Sir? With his permission, please speak. Sheilaji, you are also representing one of the rich States – Delhi. Delhi is making a lot of money.
SHRIMATI SHEILA DIKSHIT, HON’BLE STATE, DELHI : I will speak far too much anyway. You do not have to worry about it.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : You are going for election. The issue is that Mr. Chidambaram raised that States are very rich, they have got pots of money, they do not need any money but they need good governance.
SHRIMATI SHEILA DIKSHIT : Yes, that is true.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : He said the richer are getting richer and the poorer are getting poorer. For example, in a State like Delhi you are spending about Rs. 20,000 crore on Metro which is meant for middle classes, upper middle classes or whatever. Whether that amount of Rs. 20,000 crore could have been spent on something else, making power available to all the people for 24 hours or making juggiwalas also getting power – the issue is that the inclusive growth is not happening because people do not bother about economics and growth rather than politics. What is your take on it? Are you rich? Are you spending wrongly? I know you have won the mandate twice and might win again.
SHRIMATI SHEILA DIKSHIT : No, that is not the issue. I do not agree with you that you could have spent money which you have spent on Metro on anything else. For instance, you have said power. We would have spent money on power. We have got the money to spend on power. But we are constrained, terribly constrained because we have no natural resources per se to produce power. We have no coal and we have no water. So, we are dependent for natural resources from outside. Even if we were to import coal, we would not be able to do it because of ecological reasons. For reasons of ecology we are not allowed. We have not got that kind of landmass. So, we are dependent. We have tied up with Haryana, we have tied up with U.P., we have tied up with Himachal Pradesh and we have tied up with other States also. We can buy the power and we do buy the power. So, it is not that we have not been able to give the power or that power has not been given at the cost of Metro. I think transport is as important for the common person as power is. It is not the one at the cost of the other. What I would agree with you very quickly is that our systems and our management have become outdated. We have to respond much faster, we have to respond much quicker. Equitability also is lacking. The more you have, the more you get; the less you have you seem to be getting less or not enough of it. So, that gap between those who have and those who have not is not being lessened to the extent that it should have been.
Also, I do believe that somehow the States get divided. If we can share water it would be good. It seems that people would rather have the water going waste or land becoming waterlogged; but they will not give it to another State because they feel it belongs to them. I think we need to put our resources together, specially our natural resources together and share them with each other. I am absolutely of this view that even though we are becoming a country which is going to be able to sustain economically, unless we are able to match management systems equally well with it, equally fast with it, we are not going to be able to get the benefits nor is anybody else going to be able to get the benefits that it should really accrue from good economy.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Thank you. I would like to invite Hon’ble Vice-President of India to come here.
With your permission, Sir, I will take liberty. The smaller States have not been allowed to speak. Raja saheb, you have been there for quite a long time. You represent a hilly State and the hilly States have their own problems.
SHRI VIRBHADRA SINGH, HON’BLE CHIEF MINISTER, HIMACHAL PRADESH : That is why I have got patience. I am not impatient.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Patience always pays.
SHRI VIRBHADRA SINGH : Hon’ble Vice-President, Hon’ble Chief Ministers, Ministers from the States, Mr. Prabhu Chawla, Mr. Aroon Purie and friends : Mr. Chidambaram, in his speech, has made some very important statements and he gave his projections out of that from various quarters. I have been Chief Minister of Himachal Pradesh now for the fifth term. I can say with my experience that never before the States have got that much money as they are now getting under the UPA Government at the Centre. More funds have been devolved to States under various Acts. But also, it is true that the expenditures are also increasing. Taxes have also increased. I think, so far as development is concerned, it is not only money. Money is an important input. But it is also the capacity to spend that money which is needed, to utilize that money, the funds properly and to see that they are spent for the purpose for which the funds come and they produce results. Otherwise, merely spending of money does not mean development. For that, you must have a very good delivery system and a very good governance which is very much imperative for development of any State or any region or any country.
In Himachal Pradesh we started as a backward hill State and today we are not only the front-runner State among the hill States but also we are one of the front-runner States among all the States in the country. We are very grateful to the sustained assistance which we have received from the Government of India, under various schemes for our development. Our efforts for development have been appreciated by the Planning Commission, by Government of India, by various Departments and it is definitely one of the fastest-growing States in the country today.
I feel that today one of the burning problems – I am not talking about agriculture, much has been said about it – in the country today is the question of unemployment. We cannot say that over these years employment opportunities have not increased. They have increased manifold. What is there is that there is a mismatch. If we politely punch it out here, we must first make people employable. Only then, they can get employment. Earlier employment meant class-IV job or any unskilled job. There is need for that also. But today with the growth of industry, with the growth of the economy of the country there is demand for more and more skilled workers at various levels. The need is to start more institutions to impart those skills to the masses of the people so that they can get employment. Today emphasis should be not only on education which is very important but on other things also. In our State we have given highest priority to education. Starting from only 320 educational institutions we have now over 20,000 only in the Government sector. Like that, in roads also, starting with 227 kilometres of motorable roads today we have more than 30,000 kilometres of roads.
That apart, the most important thing is to have technical institutions. We should have better ITIs, polytechnics and also institutions of technical education of higher order, whether IITs and so on at all levels in all States so that more and more people get to know these skills and just become employable. Without this, I think the employment opportunities which are available even today, people are not availing of them.
The last point I want to make is about a very important point made by Shri Modi. That is that in national matters, on policies there has to be some consensus among political parties. There are certain programmes which cannot be compressed in a timeframe of five years or a period which is given for the Government to do it. National programmes are there; there must be consensus on that so that there is continuity about that. What happens today is that a Government launches a very good programme. With the change of Government the entire emphasis is changed. Whatever has been achieved is nullified and something new is started and which, before it takes root, then a new Government comes and it changes it. The thrust is lost. Therefore, on matters like education, agriculture and poverty alleviation programmes etc. and technical education and foreign affairs also, there has to be a continuity. We must have a national consensus among all the political parties so that no matter which political party or which combination of parties come to power, those national programmes do not suffer and those programmes are carried ahead and they reach their culmination. I think this is a big lacuna which I found in my long political career. Very good programme is started and it falls halfway because there is a change of Government and entirely a new direction is given or less emphasis is given to this programme. This is very important.
I have one last point to make. I must answer my esteemed colleague from Punjab. I have great respect for Punjab. I consider Punjab and Haryana, my immediate neighbours, as my big brothers. I am the younger brother.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : I consider him to be in that stage because I knew everybody will be talking about him.
SHRI VIRBHADRA SINGH : He was saying about the problem of water today. The first thing I may tell you is that Himachal Pradesh was formed as a separate political entity on 15th April, 1948. India became independent on 15th August, 1947. Himachal Pradesh came into existence on 15th April, 1948, within few months of Independence. Then the hill areas of Punjab were integrated with Himachal Pradesh on 1st November, 1966. There was always a desire among the hill people who were, due to various reasons, living in different political entities to come together. What gave impetus to this was the demand for Punjabi Suba in Punjab and all the non-Punjabi areas of Punjab came to Himachal Pradesh and some went to Haryana. Therefore, Sir, it is the Akali politics which led to the formation of Himachal Pradesh in the present form and, therefore, you lost a lot of water also.
From five rivers, you took four in Punjab. The four rivers which were in Himachal Pradesh, are now in Punjab. It is unfortunate that for all the water that comes from Himachal Pradesh, Haryana and Punjab are fighting among themselves for the water. I do not know why. I think I should put a big tap in Himachal Pradesh and distribute water from there so that this problem is resolved.
There is one thing more. He was lamenting that some States have got some industrial benefits for a limited period of time which is affecting them because many industries are going from these States to others. Even the Chief Minister of Goa made this point. It is a fallacy, a total fallacy. First thing is, I know that in my earlier days as a Member of Parliament, in my student days, whenever any factory came up in India we all used to rejoice that India is getting industrialized. Whether a factory came in Bangalore or it came in Chennai (then known as Madras) or any part of the country or Maharashtra or anywhere. We people were in the backwaters of Indian politics. We were used to see factories only with a telescope, very far away. Now a time came that we have also been able to set up industries because of infrastructure development, power availability, trained manpower and so on. If the Central Government makes certain concessions to a category of States which is known as special category States, in which Himachal Pradesh is also included, there should not be a problem. Because of that we have got certain impetus to put up industries for a limited period of time. Then, I do not think my neighbours, who have all those years been for industrialistion, should grudge.
I can say from my own experience. I have been at the Centre also. I have been Minister of Industries in Centre also. I can say this with experience that really much is being talked about the flight of factories from the various States to the States which have been given this package. About North-East, as my esteemed colleague has said, in spite of all the packages nobody is going there because of various constraints. To Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand also, I do not think anybody had come from anywhere after packing up his business, shutting down his business and coming lock, stock and barrel to Himachal Pradesh. There are some people who have expanded their business, who wanted to set up industries in this area keeping in view the market in the North India. That type of industries have come up.
There is no such case that somebody has wound up his business in Gujarat or Goa, closing down all his factories there and came to Himachal Pradesh or Uttarakhand lock, stock and barrel. It is not like that. In spite of all this hulla golla all these years, there has been a capital investment of only Rs. 26,000 crore in Himachal Pradesh which is nothing. If the figures are right, Punjab used to claim that they have got investment of nearly Rs. one lakh crore. I can show the papers. Even if it is 50% true, they still got Rs. 50,000 crore. The same thing happened with other States.
I am your younger brother. Do not grudge on my prospect. In fact, I want your full support for the further industrialization of Himachal Pradesh. Himachal Pradesh is on a boom. All these years these hill States and the remote areas have been backward.
SHRI PRAKASH SINGH BADAL : Just a minute. I am not against giving concession to Himachal Pradesh or other States. I only want that that concession should be given to Punjab because Punjab is also a very problem-State. Whatever you get, we should also get.
SHRI VIRBHADRA SINGH : You have been getting that right from the Independence days. We are getting now. But if you get it, I will be very happy.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : I think the hon’ble Vice-President is used to debates. This is the real thing where he is listening to the States. We have got a little disciplined crowd here and there will not be any adjournment here.
Mr. Singh Deo, I think you have to make a brief comment because you are also one of those under-developed States where you got pots of money as Mr. Chidambaram claims, but you are not able to spend.
SHRI K.V. SINGH DEO, HON’BLE MINISTER FOR URBAN DEVELOPMENT, GOVERNMENT OF ORISSA : Hon’ble Vice-President, Sir, Chief Ministers on the dais, Ministers off the dais, dignitaries, ladies and gentlemen : Orissa, till quite recently, was always known for all kinds of natural calamities – may it be drought, may it be floods, may it be cyclones. But in the recent years, we started off, in 1999-2000, with a deficit Budget of Rs. 2,574 crore and today we have revenue surplus of Rs. 1,045 crore. This has been achieved due to certain shift in policies, certain change in policies that the State Government managed to undertake.
The first policy that the State Government did was that we put in a value addition clause in our industrial policy resolution. We were one of the richest States, we are not richest as far as the minerals are concerned. We were second to the newly formed State of Jharkhand and Bihar. We have 33% of the country’s iron ore deposit, 71% of the country’s bauxite deposit, 32% of the manganese deposit and 97% of the chrome deposit that the country claims of. But, till recently, the industrialization was not taking place in Orissa because there was a freight subsidy which the Government of India was allowing and I think Badal saheb will excuse me because, because of that freight subsidy the industrial growth was taking place in Punjab and Haryana.
It is only when the uniform taxation was talked about and the freight subsidies were removed, people had to come to the pithead and set up the industries and that is one of the main reasons because of which Orissa is moving ahead and has today got an investment; MoUs have been signed for about Rs. 2,50,000 crore. We have, on ground, already an investment of Rs. 12,000 crore.
I will take two minutes with Prabhujis permission. The reason that it started was because the State Government, as I have said earlier, put in a clause of value addition within the State and recommendation of mining leases to the Government of India would only be done after 75% of investment of the industry is put on ground. We learnt from our past mistakes. Earlier, never were MoUs signed by industrial houses in Orissa. Once the mining leases were given to them, they backed out, they traded with the ore, they took the ore to other States and had the value addition in other States and we had no employment generation, we had no industries coming up and no revenue being earned in the State.
Apart from that, on the issue which Prabhuji talked about with regard to what comment has been made by Mr. Chidambaram that all States are having surplus of funds but not being able to use it, well, the funding pattern that has been decided by the Government of India is not State-specific, it is Centre-specific. Situations differ from State to State. If funding is made State-specific with projects and schemes for all States it would be good. Like, for example, agriculture is the forte of Punjab or even a State like Haryana. But it may not be the forte in a State like Orissa because we are dependent on the monsoons mainly for irrigation facility whereas in Punjab all the canals irrigate the lands and there are other irrigation facilities which are in place. If the Centre takes up State-specific projects or announces schemes which are State-specific and if the funding for whatever schemes are made in toto and no new schemes are launched till that scheme is completed, I think the States will move ahead quicker and the growth at the national level would be faster.
I would like to also make a mention here that there was some mention made earlier that rural areas are neglected over urban areas. I beg to differ there because I hold the portfolio of the Urban Development Department in the Government of Orissa. Urban development is more neglected than rural development because if you see any of the schemes that the Government of India launches, it is related to rural areas and it is not related to urban areas. I think, Hon’ble Chief Minister, Maharashtra will bear with me. What happened in Mumbai with the river-flooding taking place. It was only because of the shift of people from rural areas to urban areas in search of livelihood and they come and encroach upon the lands and settle down there and the infrastructure required to keep pace with the development that takes place, the growth that takes place is not there in place.
I think all States, cutting across the political party that is there in governance there, need to take a decision that to create the infrastructure, let us think out of the box and try to create the infrastructure which will keep pace with the growth that is taking place. I think Prabhuji is wanting me to conclude. I thank Prabhuji and India Today for having given me the opportunity of sharing my views here. Thank you.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Before I conclude it here, I would request Badal saheb, if he wants to make any last word, he is welcome.
SHRI PRAKASH SINGH BADAL : That is all.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : It is so kind of you, Sir.
Friends, finally we have come to the end of this beautiful programme. We expected some consensus on certain issues, we wanted not common minimum programme but common minimum national programme of development. Somehow, the discussion went along political lines as expected and nothing emerged which we can say is the consensus of the House. Hon’ble Vice-President is here. He is used to presiding over the kind of House which he must be getting a taste of it now. I will not dwell on that much more.
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SESSION WITH VICE-PRESIDENT OF INDIA
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. We are honoured to have the Vice-President of India as our chief guest today. We are honoured because he is the Chairman of the Rajya Sabha, the House of States, perfectly placed to share his views on the State of States, on development and inclusive growth, with us. He presides over the House which does represent the representatives from various States. But do they hardly represent those States or not, I will leave it to him to judge.
Your Excellency, allow me to extend you a very warm welcome. Shri Ansari brings to the Rajya Sabha both experience and expertise and much needed tact. Am I right, Sir? You bring with you much needed tact because you have experience of that as well. He also brings a global view and a deep insight on development. Shri Ansari has served with distinction across many countries including Arab Emirates, Afghanistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Considered to be one of India’s finest diplomatic minds, he has represented India at the United Nations as well.
Sir, we have something in common. I started off as an academic and you had a distinguished stint in academia as well. You were the Vice-Chancellor of Aligarh Muslim University and have been a Visiting Professor in JNU, in Jamia Milia. As Chairman of the National Commission for Minorities and a leading writer of international affairs, Sir, you have never shied of speaking up what is right. Frankly speaking, you have written so much and I am proud to claim that he has been writing for India Today as well and we have gained from his writings.
Sir, we applaud and respect you for your frank views. Sir, the sight of an intellectual amidst the hurly burly of Indian politics here is indeed interesting. Your years in diplomacy, I am sure, must be coming handy to manage the different voices that sometime seem like a cacophony that really represent the plural nature of India. How you control them, you must deserve the Nobel Prize for that.
Sir, we are sure that your presence here and your speech today will inspire the States to work harder and build an India that is a super power in real sense. On behalf of India Today Group we extend you once again a very warm welcome, Sir, and request you to address the gathering.
HIS EXCELLENCY SHRI MOHD. HAMID ANSARI, HON’BLE VICE-PRESIDENT OF INDIA : Well, I confess the part of the discussion that I was fortunate to listen to was fascinating with the Indian federalism at its best.
Hon’ble Chief Ministers, Hon’ble Members of Parliament, Hon’ble Ministers, Shri Prabhu Chawla and the India Today editorial team, ladies and gentlemen :
It gives me very great pleasure to address the Fifth India Today State of States Conclave. I particularly commend India Today Group for systematically building up quantitative reference points for debate and policymaking on a range of social and economic development themes. The focus of the State of States report this year – inclusive growth – is timely. One cannot but be stuck by the fact that this issue has continued to dominate every critique of governance in India for over a century.
It was at the ninth session of the Indian National Congress at Lahore in 1893 that Dadabhai Nauroji commented and I quote : “The greatest question before you, the question of all questions, is the poverty of India. This will be, I am much afraid, the great future trouble both for the Indian people and of the British rulers. It is the rock ahead”. The situation was no different five decades later on the eve of Independence as is evident from Pame Dutt’s observation in 1946 and I quote again : “India is a country of poor people; but it is not a poor country. Between these two lies the problem of the existing social and political order in India’.
Thus, a century after Dadabhai Nauroji, the rock continues to exist and portends the great future trouble. The poverty of India is still the question of all questions. The successes of the Indian economy are good. We have had a real GDP growth of 9.4% for 2006-2007 and an exchange rate per capita GDP of 880 dollars. In purchasing power parity terms, the per capita GDP is climbed to around 4,000 dollars. Our savings and investment rates have increased. There was a gross FDI inflow of 19.5 billion dollars in 2006-2007 and good reasons exist to believe that there have been productivity and efficiency.
[change of tape side]
The evident contradiction perplexes observers and leads to two questions. One is – what does this mean for a large segment of our population and two – what is the true wealth of our nation. Is it the national income and material wealth or are the people of India enabled and empowered our true wealth? If it is the latter, the only measure of national progress should be the quality of life of our people.
The recently published report of the National Commission for Enterprises in the Unorganized Sector vividly portrays the extent of poverty and vulnerability of a vast section of our people. The sense of satisfaction at the macro economic situation stands diminished with the realization that 77% of our population, totaling 836 million people, have an income of around Rs. 20, half a dollar in exchange rate terms and two dollars in purchasing power parity terms. This poor and vulnerable segment of the Indian population represents the broad category within which the dynamics of poverty alleviation plays out.
But the poor are not homogenous. There are movements across sub-categories. Thus, the sub-category of extremely poor and poor, whose expenditure per day is less than Rs. 12 per day, have reduced by one-third from 30.7% of the population in 1993-94 to around 22% in 2004-2005. But those who moved out of such grinding poverty have graduated to the next sub-category of those who are marginally poor and vulnerable and whose daily expenditure constitutes less than Rs. 20 per day. Indeed this is poverty alleviation but in a technical sense. We must ask as to how the overall well-being of a person changes on a rise in expenditure from Rs. 12 to Rs. 20 per day. At the other end, the middle and high income categories have also roughly increased by about one-third from 18% of the population in 1993-94 to around 23% in 2004-2005.
While all citizens contribute to the national effort, in public perceptions there are two Indias – an India focused on wealth accumulation and another India focused on poverty reduction. We have a situation where the richest 10% of the population account for slightly less than 30% of the share of expenditure and the poorest 10% of the population account for less than 5%. Thus, the overall economic growth of the country has not yet translated itself into fair distribution of the fruits of development. Wealth accumulation at the top has been more impressive than poverty reduction at the bottom. The challenge is to accept that wealth accumulation and poverty reduction are two sides of the same coin and need to be addressed together.
The debate so far has been mainly concentrated on income, poverty and inequality. It is held that economic development leads to poverty reduction and eventually to human development. While the broad causality of this is true, the extent of impact is dependent on the income distribution pattern of the country. If, as in India, the richest segment of the population captures a larger share of the economic development, the extent of poverty reduction would be lower for the same quantum of economic development.
Ladies and gentlemen, more than income inequalities what are particularly worrisome are stark human development inequalities that adversely impact upon life chances and capabilities of our people. These can be grouped into four groups.
Ability to survive, the life expectancy and child mortality questions
Access to basic healthcare, specially for the most vulnerable
Access to education and human resource development initiatives; and
Gender issues and empowerment of women.
We have many examples from around the world and within the country where public policy choices have ensured better human development outcome than warranted by the level of economic development. This was done through a conscious focus on income distribution patterns and ensuring that public spending on basic health and education remained high.
How does India rank according to these parameters? Public expenditure on education is around 3% of the GDP and on health around one per cent of the GDP, 1.2% to be precise. This is low by any standards and specially for the extent of poverty that exists in India. Much more needs to be done.
Inequalities in our society have other markers also. These pertain to disadvantaged groups and minorities, to the place of residence such as the urban rural divide, to regional disparities in development. Each of these acts as an inequality multiplier by negating substantive freedoms and life chances for individuals. Some of these were analysed in depth in the India Social Development Report published last year by the Council for Social Development, New Delhi. The report also sought to develop a social development index and classified 20 of the larger States of the country on the basis of six component indices – demography, healthcare, basic amenities, education, unemployment and poverty and social deprivation.
These are not esoteric, philosophical or economic issues. They are vital themes that find a strong resonance in the basic principles of our polity. Article 37 of the Constitution defines the application of the Directive Principles of State Policy as fundamental to the governance of the country. Article 32(8) states that the State shall, in particular, strive to minimize the inequalities in income and endeavour to eliminate inequalities in status, facilities and opportunities not only amongst individuals but also amongst groups of people residing in different areas or engaged in different vocations. Article 39 also calls on the State to direct its policy towards securing the citizens, men and women equally, that they have the right to an adequate means of livelihood and that children are given opportunities and facilities to develop in a healthy manner and in conditions of freedom and dignity.
Ladies and gentlemen, Mahatma Gandhi accepted that his ideal of equal distribution is not realizable. But he advocated equitable distribution as an achievable goal. This goal could be one parameter for assessing the state of States. Inclusive growth could, thus, be the sub-text of all our developmental efforts.
I thank the organizers of the Conclave for inviting me and wish it all success. Thank you.
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Thank you very much, Sir, for this incisive speech.
MS. RINI KHANNA : May I request Mr. Prabhu Chawla to present a copy of the State of the States Report to the Hon’ble Vice-President for release?
[RELEASE OF THE REPORT BY THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF INDIA]
SHRI PRABHU CHAWLA : Friends, like a rich parent, we have got one of the Chief Ministers of a State, Maharashtra, which is the richest State – when a father has more money he distributes it among the other children and the father becomes poor; from the State of Shri Vilasrao Deshmukh most of the revenues come and there has been growth also in the last three years but despite of that he could not stop his people and that money is being invested elsewhere. I say that your people have collected so much money because of good governance, good investment climate. Almost all of that money is being invested; Shri Tata is spending somewhere, Shri Ambani is spending somewhere else. Please see that some of that is invested by them in your State. Then it would be good. Your State has got rich people, they are benefiting others, other countries. So, he is a rich parent, he is benefiting others. So, let us give a big hand to him.
MS. RINI KHANNA : May I now call upon Shri Shankar Aiyar, Managing Editor, India Today to conduct the Awards ceremony?
SHRI SHANKAR AIYAR, MANAGING EDITOR, INDIA TODAY : Good evening ladies and gentlemen. We have with us the Chief Minister of Puducherry Mr. Rangaswamy. He was delayed because he comes from a far away State.
The Awards are based on the State of States report that is produced by Dr. Laveesh Bhandari and Dr. Bibek Debroy. Each of the parameters has six to eight variables and based on this we give awards for the best big State, the best small State and since two years we are giving also for the most improved State because those who are striving to achieve better growth, better infrastructure should also be recognized. I also want to state here that the awards are purely objective data, there is no subjectivity. Mr. Sukhbir Singh Badal is here. Last year, Shri Sukhbir Singh Badal had protested vigorously. I hope you would not have any grouse for protest because Punjab is still getting awards this year.
SHRI SUKHBIR SINGH BADAL : My objection was different.
SHRI SHANKAR AIYAR : The Hon’ble Vice-President has to leave. So, I will try and make the presentation fast and quick. We will move to the first awards immediately.
[AWARDS CEREMONY]
SHRI SHANKAR AIYAR : Prabhu, I think we should get all the awardees and the other Chief Ministers for a group photograph.
[GROUP PHOTOGRAPH]
SHRI SHANKAR AIYAR : May I now call upon Mr. Ashish Bagga, Chief Executive Officer, India Today Group to give the vote of thanks?
SHRI ASHISH BAGGA, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, INDIA TODAY GROUP: Good evening. On behalf of India Today magazine and the India Today Group, I would like to thank the Hon’ble Vice-President of India Shri Ansari, respected Chief Ministers, Ministers of various States and State representatives who are present here, distinguished guests, our sponsors – Videocon and IL&FS who have partnered with us on this event to make it yet another successful State of the States Conclave. I would also like to thank our media partners, television partners, Aaj Tak and Headlines Today who would be running this programme across their channels right through today and tomorrow.
Ladies and gentlemen, I would also like to invite all of you to a high tea which has been organized in the adjoining hall, soon after the National Anthem is played. Thank you so much for joining us and we look forward to yet another successful State of the States Conclave next year. Thank you.
[THE NATIONAL ANTHEM WAS PLAYED]
[THE CONCLAVE THEN CONCLUDED]
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